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Southern Pride?
Hey, so I’ve got a follow-up post about this but first I wanted to run something by you. Kristin and I have been in Tennessee for exactly 5 years today. Five years ago today we pulled in to our new apartment in a state across the country from anything we grew up knowing.
One of those things we didn’t know anything about was this flag. Now, I know there are all sorts of opinions about this flag, but what is the current cultural meaning of this flag? More specifically, what do you think of when you see this flag? It’s everywhere out here and I’ve been thinking a little about it.
So let’s hear it. What’s this flag mean in today’s society to you? Ready? Go.
I don’t know why but I think it’s redneck…
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I see it and I think racism.
I think that particular image will always symbolize it.
For me just another misunderstood symbol.. I relate it more to southern hospitality. To some more of southern hostility..I think the swastika has pretty much the same problem, it didn’t start that way it was when the boy scouts were using it.. it was until hitler changed the interpretation of the symbol that it took a turn for the worse. With that being said the swastika doesn’t get the same attention for some reason.
Brody…I have family roots from the Union and Confederacy (Tennessee) and the rebel flag or stars & bars to me is a symbol of the fight for states rights. It hurts me to say that in the last 40-50 years it has become a symbol of Southern bigotry. The meaning of this great battle flag has been redefined as the modern day symbol for racial hatred and ‘redneck’ bigotry. My wife and I are Civil War scholars and we do not feel comfortable displaying the rebel flag out of fear of offending a friend or co-worker.
I don’t like what it stands for today and don’t agree with most people in society, but I can’t deny that to most it is a racist symbol…unfortunately.
I think it’s unfortunate people have come to associate the Confederate flag with racism, bigotry and hatred. It was the flag of a group of States that were fighting for what they believed in. You really can’t take a belief from so many years ago and try to define it in modern times. It’s like comparing apples and oranges. I am not a racist, bigot or hater but it pains me that I can not be proud of my relatives that fought on the side of the Confederacy during the war between the states. We are talking about my grandfather and his brothers. We are talking about my heritage.
i remember before we moved to TN a friend told me that it is a culture thing down here and it doesn’t have the same meaning to southerners as it does in CA. i remember thinking, “that is weird. how can that be?”
i get in now however.
being in the south and knowing southerners it is a southern pride thing. southern people are fiercely proud, and not in a bad way. they are proud of their food, music, history hospitality, hard working spirit, and their LOVE of the southland itself! the confederate flag is the symbol of this pride to most. and no they are not proud of racism, or being rednecks. they know that it has been perverted to mean something bad to a lot of people, and as unfortunite as that is, it is still their symbol and they are proud of it.
Thank you for putting into words exactly how I feel.
So I guess, based on these answers, what typically does it mean when someone is flying this flag today?
What did the Confederate Army believe they were fighting for?
Does it mean the same thing today?
This flag is one of the symbols of the south that kinda makes me laugh. I was born and raised in South Carolina and Tennessee- I think I may qualify as a ‘suthner’ but I don’t have southern pride. You won’t find this flag anywhere near my stuff, my home or car. I have many, many, many friends (not close friends) in the deep south who put that flag out as a racist-punkass move. I don’t agree with them at all. I’ve called them out on it many times… still, there is a mindset with many folks what this flag stands for.
No, not everyone who displays that flag is a racist or punk. Many understand the history and respect they symbol. This is where it makes me laugh. The South lost. The North won. We don’t usually see people running around waving a symbol talking how awesome it was to lose or come in 2nd or 3rd…
All that to say, I agree this flag has more to do with hate now than it did even back 20 years ago. Remember the Dukes of Hazzard didn’t hate anyone except Boss Hogg (and technically they kinda liked him).
I’m with most. I lived in Mississippi for a number of years in the 70′s/early 80′s. For me it became of symbol of Southern pride. It was a huge symbol at Ole Miss. It flew everywhere. Especially on game days.
It is one more thing that has become something “dirty”. The Confederate Army believed in what they were fighting for at the time, so who are we 150 years later to take that away? The Confederate flag is a part of history, but then again, so is the Pledge of Allegiance to our Stars & Stripes. Sad that if just one person is offended, whole pieces of history disappear. Almost like they never existed. We are no longer a melting pot of cultures, but just groups of people who bicker about this symbol or that saying. This is the UNITED States of America!! Why can’t we just respect each other? I don’t like everything other cultures do or say, but I respect it. I think when we don’t understand something, we tend to shoot first, ask questions later.
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hey shellie. i respect and understand what you’re saying, however i do want to point out that the confederacy fought to break away from the union. yes, part of that fight was a disagreement over states rights, but part of it was also about the ‘right’ to subject others into slavery. that is one of the key differences between this symbol and the others you mentioned.
there have been movements in human history that were just wrong. extreme example: even if the spanish inquisitors meant well, it doesn’t mean we should celebrate what they did to their fellow man.
i’m a californian. i don’t pretend to understand southern culture. however, i would guess that the vast majority of people in our nation would have a negative response to seeing an image of this flag.
i do believe the comments here from folks in the south who say that to them the stars & bars means ‘southern hospitality.’ everyone is entitled to their own perception.
however, from outside, i feel the need to say that the rest of us equate that image with those who STILL use it as a symbol for hate, racism and bigotry. in the wider cultural history, that’s who’s ended up with the correlation to this flag, not hospitable people.
while we’re called to love and respect others, we’re not obligated to love and respect every ideology. outside the south (and obviously to some within) this flag is a symbol of an ideology.
Please keep in mind that in your own words “from outside”, you can not really understand any more than I understand what is happening in California right now. No one from outside can really understand unless they come to the South with an open mind and see this issue “from inside.”
I live in Oklahoma and while we are a southern state, we’re not ‘deep south.’ The Confederate flag is rarely seen around here and when it is, it is at country convenience stores, stickers on the back of pick-ups, etc. While I understand it is a symbol of southern pride to some, around here it is mostly viewed as ‘redneck’ or racist. I agree with most of the other comments that the Confederate flag has been twisted to mean something that it didn’t back in Civil War times. Brody, you asked what does it mean when someone is flying the Confederate flag today… I think it varies from person to person and also based on where they are from. I’m sure there are southerners who fly it with pride in southern history, etc. But I’m sure there are also some who still have separatist views. My opinion, whatever it’s worth, is that the Confederate flag is a painful symbol for some and it carries a lot of negative connotation, so why continue to use it? Just a thought…
I grew up in Alabama. Lived in Mississippi for 6 years. Now I reside in Savannah, GA. You really can’t get much more Southern than that. That being said, I am a well-educated, semi-traveled individual who respects people’s differences as well as their similarities.
This symbol was once a source of pride for those who flew it. It was about states’ rights. It was about not being run over by a big government. It was a lot of what is still fought for (although not in a literal war) today in the South. It is the same ideals that ran through the Confederates veins that cause most of the Southern states to be red states today.
However, too many ignorant, stupid, and bigoted people have used this symbol and greatly distorted its original meaning. Due to stupid people flying this around like they personally fought for their rights, it has come to mean hatred and racism.
My personal experience…I am a very proud Southerner. However, I am not proud of everything that was ever done here. But I do respect that people were willing to die for their beliefs. It takes courage and gumption. I will tell you that most people who are simply proud of their heritage (with no bigotry attached) do not fly this flag unless it is in a ceremony or means to honor the fallen Confederate soliders. Otherwise they come across as rednecks, and that is not their desire.
My ancestors that fought while wearing gray (when they were lucky enough to get their hands on a uniform) did not own slaves. I have no idea what they thought of slavery, but they had wealth closer to a slave’s than to a slave owner’s. They were fighting because they were feeling smothered and they were not about to be controlled. They were dying because of what they believed to be a love of country and freedom that was trying to be taken from them.
People have this perception that the South was full of slave owners and slaves. The truth of the matter is that very few people had wealth enough to own slaves. The reason slavery happened in the South is not because the people who lived here were especially bigoted. It’s because this is where the farmland was. Seriously…if the ground had been any good in New England, it would have prevailed there instead.
So…my rambling just to say…no one I know who exhibits true Southern pride is willing to fly this on a regular basis just because of how its meaning has been so distorted.
And an ironic side note–so many of the people I see flying this and acting like an idiot behind it…would never have been able to afford owning slaves. They might have been working a field right next to them, in fact.
This is awesome conversation. Thanks for all the input. As a Californian, this is all pretty fascinating to me. Let’s keep it going. Anything else?
Thank you for bringing us this opportunity to express our opinions, what ever they might be. I think this is an issue that needs to be brought into the open. Behind locked doors it’s difficult to see anything but what is in our own minds and let’s face it, that is a small part of any story.
I have lived within 50 miles of Columbia, TN my whole life. I grew up with that flag. I know it is used as a symbol of hate, not just ignorance but down right hate. That fact makes my heart sad. I am a southern girl and I am fiercely proud to be one. I have memories of going to my family cemetery on the first Sunday in June to put flowers and that flag on the graves of my relatives who fought under it. When I see a Confederate flag I think about my childhood, my grandfather and how he always smelled like peppermint, my grandmother’s kitchen, fried chicken, and sweet tea. It’s the association with hate and violence that follows my initial reaction. I make the choice to view it as a symbol of my heritage and nothing more.
I tried to comment earlier, but my comment never made it.
I don’t have strong feelings nor an opinion regarding what the flag means, but I read an article yesterday that is relevant to this topic. Here is the link:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/11/nation/la-na-oil-tensions-20100811
Basically, it’s about Louisiana residents that are getting fed up with the “invasion” of oil spill contract workers renting homes in their neighborhoods. They accuse the blacks of committing crimes and are flying their confederate flags to let them know that they are not welcome!
Wow, huh?
To give it such high importance in our society would that classify as a idolatry? Since it appears to be a symbol of pride to some and hate to others ( and as the last link to the LA times gives the impression of making it a symbol of warning) it makes me wonder at what point reverence for something crosses a line no matter what the intention is.
I’m supposed to be ashamed of the Confederacy and the Confederate flag because some people have distorted it to mean something other than what it originally symbolized. Next I guess “Remember the Alamo” will be a taboo also. Does anyone believe that means I hate Mexicans? It means to remember the brave men that fought and gave up their lives trying to maintain freedom for The Republic of Texas. I was brought up being proud of my State first and the United States second. You know the US really is a group of States. Each of those States is different and each has a very different history. I believe in States rights and that’s what the Confederacy believed in too. People from the deep South will tell you Texas isn’t even a Southern State. I was brought up to believe it was and that we fought on the side of the Confederacy to keep the Federal Government from dictating what individual States were allowed to do.
My grandfather was a banker, one great uncle was a lawyer, two were teachers and some were too young to be anything but kids when they joined the Confederate Army. None of them had plantations or slaves but all of them believed in States rights and that the Federal government should be a servant to the States not the other way around.
My boyfriend is German. Because of Hitler, they are taught in school they have a National shame to bear and that they should not be proud of their country or their flag. Don’t you find that a little sad. He wasn’t alive when Hitler was in power but he’s supposed to bear shame and can’t be proud to be a German? This makes no sense to me. Is that where we’re headed? He couldn’t believe it after 9/11 when he would watch tv and Americans would wave flags. He kept telling me that couldn’t happen in Germany because you would be considered to be supporting Hitler. Finally when the World Cup was in Europe, Germans were allowed to wave their flags to show support of their team if not their country.
I’m proud to be a Texan. I’m proud my ancestors fought for States rights. Why do we feel the need to change history? Why don’t we teach the entire truth and not just part of it? Yes a part of that fight was about slavery. If you go back to that place in time and study the whole story, it was about a lot more than slavery.
Aren’t I allowed to be proud of my heritage and the brave people that gave their lives for their families and their neighbors?
i think of it like this.
you have a child, (we’ll call him bobby for discussion’s sake). you love bobby and are proud of him.
at some point in his life bobby does something wrong. this wrong doing leaves a bad image of him in the minds of most of the people on the outside of the family who don’t know him personaly. bobby is very apologetic for his wrong, yet people, despite the wishes of the family, use bobby’s image as the icon of this perticular crime.
do you, as his family, stop loving bobby?
Dukes of Hazzard. What can I say? I was a child of the early 80′s. And a northerner at that
Ha ha, that was my first instinct, too!
Moving to GA recently, it’s been quite the shock to see this flag displayed for us Californians. In California, people would display these and they were not displaying proud heritage of their southern roots if you know what I mean.
It’s hard because for some it’s a symbol of the south a representation of their roots. But for me, Im German in decent, but would never display the swastika because it represented a regime that took the rights of people right to the grave. I think that while we an see it as fighting for what they believed, the main issue during the civil war was Slavery. The south represented the determination not to end slavery and each side flew their flags as a symbol, representation of those beliefs.
To each his own….I just wont ever think that’s a “cool” piece of history to hang
slavery is the issue that is currently remembered as the main issue of the civil war, but at the time it was not the main issue.
We’re spending all our time talking about the Southland and the Confederacy.
This was a war between TWO groups of States with differing views on what role the federal government should play in it’s lives.
I don’t think anyone has mentioned the Union army and how it ravaged both the people of the Southland and the land itself.
The Confederate army fought to save it’s people and it’s homeland in addition to fighting for it’s ideals. They stood up and gave their lives for a cause they believed in and for their families, friends and neighbors.
From the view of a southerner, the Union army was backed by a government determined to kill anyone that didn’t agree with it. From my point of view – that’s what Hitler did.
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The original question wasn’t about the war; it was about the Confederate flag.
You can’t discuss the Confederate flag without discussing where it began. That is what makes up the difference of opinions. For those of us with relatives that fought under it, it means one thing. For those that have no heritage attached to it, it means something else. For those that have perverted it for their own ignorant purposes, it has yet a different meaning.
I would like to see it stop being perverted and go back to it’s original meaning. Then those of us with our heritage in the Southland can go back to taking pride in our history and our relatives.