Mind if I jump in here real quick? This stuff is so interesting to me. And it’s been making me think and read…

Shaun, you ask in your comment: If so, it doesn’t mean we can’t live spiritually in opposition to God, if tested in the same way Lucifer was right? And “equal to the angels” we surely wouldn’t fare any better than them in a similar “test.”

I think I understand your question. I’ll use Scripture here that I know all you have probably considered, but I’ll attempt using them in a more focused light.

Understanding life and death, in a spiritual sense, has always confused me a bit. But I think some of this helps: We consider angels to be spiritual beings. They are immaterial, and so also immortal. Not infinite, as only God is, but created by God as spiritual beings.

Now, we consider man as a physical and spiritual being. We are material, made of mass. God created us material, and then breathed His life into us, the spiritual. (How we are made in His image, possibly.) Now before the apple, death was not there. We were material but immortal. But, after the fall of man and man chose sin, death entered. (Romans 5:12: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned)

So we experience death. Both physically and spiritually, because we’re made of both. The physical death is easy for us to see, the spiritual not so much. Because spiritual death does not mean “decay” or “stop functioning” like it does in the physical sense. Spiritual death has to be different, so to study it, I think we can look at the opposite, spiritual life.

First of all, the gospel of John is chalk full of Jesus talking about the life that he offers, and He many, many times uses the phrase, “eternal life.” Denoting an everlasting life that is differentiated from eternal condemnation. Like here:

John 5: 24: “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life…. 28″Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus stresses later in John that this eternal life cannot be taken away from us:

John 5: 28: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Jesus prays before his crucifixion, and here we see this definition of eternal life:

John 17:1: After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

So the opposite of eternal life is NOT knowing the one true God and Jesus Christ….condemnation.
Again, this eternal life has to be different from eternal condemnation. It is a gift that is everlasting.

Paul says in
Romans 8:1: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.”

No condemnation, ever. Jesus did here on earth what Adam couldn’t do. He passed the test. He chose God’s will over his own. But because he was man he experienced the punishment that was due to us in physical death…and spiritual death, he was forsaken by God. But, he defeated it, both physically and spiritually, and rose again.

If we are able to live in opposition to God in heaven, then Christ didn’t defeat sin and death. If we are able to live in opposition to God in heaven, we would be cast from His presence, as we saw with the angels, and Jesus not only promises this condemnation will not happen in eternal life, he has defeated the possibility.

Thoughts?

You said: “that kind of free will is out in heaven. Says who? We’d like to think so - I think so - I hope so - but does the bible say as much? Again, is glorification not being allowed to choose sin or is it the absence of sin to choose?”

And then: “PRESENCE! If sin is not present in heaven how can we choose it?”

I think some of the answers to this here conundrum can be answered in the way you are looking at “sin” only because it seems that you guys are talking about sin as if it is a “something” when it is actually a “nothing” the FREE WILL to CHOOSE nothing is the real kicker, i.e. the big-time mystery.

Sin, stripped away from all its pretty clothing, in its nakedness, is pride as we have all been taught. And pride is essentially NOT choosing God. Satan tempted the Lord with Good things like bread or all the kingdoms of the world, and the care of angels. But underneath all that was really to choose “not God”

On further examination we see that NOT choosing God is essentially choosing “nothing” since God made all things from nothing and holds ALL things together. So sin is choosing a state of being that is NOT of God, and since everything made is held together by the very thought of God, when we sin we are choosing a state of nothingness. i.e. death. The wages of that choosing nothing is Death. Nothing.

So, what the real question we are looking at here is not if there is sin in heaven for the choosing, (as if sin is a tangible, created item for the choosing when it isn’t) but will we still have the ability to CHOOSE “God” or “nothing” resulting in “death” or “sin.”

So when you ask: “is glorification not being allowed to choose sin or is it the absence of sin to choose?”

You are asking about the same thing because it is both at once.

And it seems to me, as told in scripture, that once we choose Christ, the reward is that God does not allow “nothing” or “death” to have ANY power since he has conquered it.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So therefore, yes, we are safe which has to mean we can’t choose it because we have chosen God and the rest is his territory.

Then again there is this verse:

“and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

So the bible may not say explicitly that we will deprived of that kind of choice but it does pretty explicitly list all the things that we won’t worry about and those things just happen to be the result of that choice, so taking on tiiiiny leap and saying, that choice is removed, isn’t to far of a stretch to me. In fact, it is essential because the choice IS those things.

So for NOW there is God, and there is nothing. And we choose either. And we feeeel that nothing when we don’t choose him. Every time we sin we choose to die a little. (A hard but cool thing for me to ponder.) Somehow in the Garden with A & E and NOW we were given the ability to choose either, and THAT was the mystery then and again now. And I just so happens that the times that I see him the clearest here also happen to be the times that I am thinking the least about choosing “nothing,” even dressed up in a pretty package.

I’ll stop here for fear of not getting your point and typing too much.

Thoroughly enjoying this as well fellas.

So Seth…

You say The reason being, that Satan lead them astray. As for Satan, the father of lies, it was pride, it seems from scripture.

Alrighty. But if Heaven is a perfect place how can temptation exist there at all? (This is assuming heaven is a “there” but that’s another issue altogether.) You know the drill. We’ve been saved in th past from the penalty of sin (Justification), in the present from the power of sin (sanctification) and we will be saved in the future from the presence of sin (glorification). PRESENCE! If sin is not present in heaven how can we choose it?

BAM! No answer we conjur up to these questions of Bordy’s - at least so far - stands up under the tiniest amount of scrutiny. WHich I love. It can’t be reasoned.

Who was it that said God lisps when talking to us, the way I talk baby talk to my smallest child. I think the versio of events we have in scripture is so incredibly juvenile, dumbed down etc that it fails to satisfy us for long - but the whole truth would be unintelligible for us would it not? Just a guess.

“Neither can they die any more, for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

In what sense? The bible says we won’t die if we believe in Jesus but that’s death is a spiritual one because, of course, we do physically die. Is this the same promise? If so, it doesn’t mean we can’t live spiritually in opposition to God, if tested in the same way Lucifer was right? And “equal to the angels” we surely wouldn’t fare any better than them in a similar “test.”

that kind of free will is out in heaven. Says who? We’d like to think so - I think so - I hope so - but does the bible say as much? Again, is glorification not being allowed to choose sin or is it the absence of sin to choose?

It seems then that the Angels didn’t have the direct gaze that Jesus speaks of when he said “for I say unto you that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)” Jesus - God with skin on - walked with Adam and Eve in the garden and called their name. How much more face-to-face can you get?

Seth, I thoroughly enjoyed your comments. Never thought through some of that.

I especially liked how you closed: mystery. That pretty much sums it up for me. Fun to ponder. Might even make sense of some of it some day. But mostly, these questions lead me to awe inspiring mystery.

Sometimes I’ll post a similar kind question on my blog and no one will get the real question and end up explaining lots of stuff that I wasn’t wondering. Usually my fault. No big deal. Worm, I wasn’t meaning that. Many apologies…

Anywho, I do disagree with the statement that the bible doesn’t tell us how the angels fell. Maybe I’m misunderstanding that.

The reason being, that Satan lead them astray. As for Satan, the father of lies, it was pride, it seems from scripture.

I do think there is a biblical aswer to just about every one you asked. Some of it theologians, I guess you could say, “discern” these answers, but not much more discerning than what it takes to come up with “the Trinity” that is never mentioned specifically. So I re-read here without skimming I will take a humble stab at thy questions. It’s a long one but hey, you ask the questions buddy.

Brody: “Could there be a time where we rebel?”

Well, it would seem that most NT scripture points to the garden as a “one time event” for instance:

1 Corinthians 15:21-22,45,49 21For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ..45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. ..49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Brody: “What caused Lucifer to want to rise up and desire to be higher than God? Was it sin?”

As for that, theologians have used Satan’s fall from heaven as described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18 to discern it was pride. And then there are probably others that I’m too lazy to look up. As for God creating sin, we know that God didn’t create sin, but we know he created the test for the possibility. It was there in garden so we could pretty easy make the leap that some kind of test was given to the angels and that had something to do with the Devil, and his test was the first, which was pride.

Brody: “And what is stopping someone from doing that once we are all there? What is stopping thirty percent of us from being “cast out”?

Because of the test in the garden, and from stuff quoted in the Corinth. verses above, we could say that it WILL be different. It is our great hope in fact. there is also this verse from Luke 20:36

“Neither can they die any more, for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Which seems to imply that death is OUT for us if we believe now, like it is for the good angels now. So we know death is gone, death came by sin and sin came from the test and the test was made possible by our free will… so then comes the free will question.

Brody: “If you say there is no possible way that we could rebel in Heaven, are you saying that God will take away our “free will” when we get there?”

That question seems to have a few layers. First you have to decide just what is “free will” and that is a whole thing unto itself. If you consider “free will” to be: “a constant state of being able to choose sin over God,” then the answer would seem to be yes, that kind of free will is out in heaven.

But I would consider that to be a gift that we choose to recieve rather than a “heeeey you took my free will!!!” So in a sense he gives us freedom, by our faith in him using free will now, and we willing give that up and get to be happy all the time. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

But even when you talk about that “free will” NOW it gets tricky because nobody has a total free will right here and now. You or I can’t just say “I cease to exist” and poof we are gone. No, we have a certain amount of free will give to us (to choose him or self) and when we choose Christ, in a sense we are surrendering that as well and as Paul says we become slaves. This is fully realized in heaven but we start the journey now as Paul goes on to explain,

“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known” Corinth 13:12

And then in Revelation:

” and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

Implying then that “No” we won’t be able to sin which causes the mourning, death, crying and pain.

Brody: Or, has God created a different Heaven that is “more efficient” than the Heaven that Lucifer lived in, in order to avoid another uprising”

This is a cool question and seems to be your main one. I think the question would be “did the angels have a beatific vision (the state they are in now, removed from the danger of sin), in full, before there fall?” Rather than: “‘did God create an inefficient heaven which caused some to fall and then fixed it so the rest wouldn’t…” You could ask the same of Eden: “Did God create an inefficient Eden?”

It seems then that the Angels didn’t have the direct gaze that Jesus speaks of when he said “for I say unto you that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)”

Because we know some blew it and some got it right. Why? It seems that they had the choice to be led astray by the devil (as did A & E) and that if they gaze upon him now as Jesus states then they must have not had this gift when this happened as told in Revelation:

“And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”

(Of course since that verse is in Rev, we could wonder if John was talking about end times but Jesus told the disciples earlier “He replied, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. ” (Luke: 10:18) so it seems to have happened by the time Jesus came.)

The underlying question to all that is: “has God created a different Heaven that is more efficient?” is “did God mess up?” I think main-line Christianity has said, no, he didn’t. He knew it all, created it all and He is without wrong. At the end of that long discussion we would find that the question of “how a all-knowing God would create a situation knowing we would screw up but still not desire us to screw up…” is a mystery.

As for: “acknowledged that there were flaws in a perfect eternity prior to Earth?”

There seems to be only one verse that people who adhere to “the Gap theory” use to imply this. And that is between Gen. 1:1 and 2, stating that there is a big gap between the two where God had to start over. But that seems to be a bigger scripture jump than the idea that God DOES NOT “feel his way” through creation messing up and fixing it.

There is no way for us to know anything about heaven or even death. That’s the hard part. I guess my deal is that it might not be outside the realm of possibility of happening.

Shaun and I have talked about a “new heaven” and a “new earth” and I think, in some science fiction kind of way, what if everything started over?

It’s fun to think about.

(by the way, I didn’t sense any “talking down”)

Well, I’ve heard it explained that the angels were given the test just like old A & E. And that was their test. They were given the option to “be able to” follow Lucifer. It must have been pretty dang tantalizing. So how? I guess it was there the same way the tree was, God put it there or allowed it. Giving the choice wasn’t an accident in the Garden, and it wasn’t an accident in Heaven. It was more of a moment, rather than a constant state of effed-upness, and that moment was purposed. Without that “moment” or choice, there could be no real Love between man and God or Angel and God. Of course, thats what the theologian big-wigs say.

Kaballah (however you spell that) teaches that God was sort “feeling” his way through creation, screwing up and correcting it. The whole Cosmic Janitor theory.

It’s a pretty incredible thing to ponder. What that must have been like for Adam and Eve, and the Fallen Angels. That moment of “choice” It must have been a very foreign and alluring thing- the ability to choose from total innocence. It is something that we have never experienced. The complete newness of the possiblity for sin. Even the Lord was tempted for cryin out loud.

It must have been even all the more alluring for the angels and all the more wonderful if they did not choose, considering the punishment for their choice was and is more severe.

It begs the question: was the allure of self-over-God or “sin” made irresistible as well?

Now re-enters our Reformed friends…

Again, I’d have to study more, but from the little that I’ve read…

I agree with you on this 100%. I believe that there is something that happens jest before we confess with our mouths that “Jesus is Lord”. I believe God knocks on a door and we can’t help but open it.

I can see how, because of God’s grace, we wouldn’t want to sin in Heaven, possibly not even be able to, but my original thought still wonders how the angels we able to.