Trouble In Heaven Again?
Eternity is a long time. I have been thinking this week about spending an eternity in heaven, and what that could possibly look like to those that are there. I have been thinking about how long God and his angels were around before this world was spoken into existence and what caused the fall of Lucifer and a handful of angels.
The basic idea that I have is that Lucifer desired equality with God and became jealous (Isa. 14:12-14). He convinced thirty percent of the angels to rise up with him (Rev. 12:4) and were eventually thrown out of Heaven. (Isa. 14:12)
My question is, what is stopping this from happening again?
When this earth is over and all of the Christians are taken up, could there be a time in this new eternity where some of us rebel? I know the Sunday School answer is “no” because there can’t be sin in the presence of God, but why was there when Lucifer rebelled? What caused Lucifer to want to rise up and desire to be higher than God? Was it sin? And what is stopping someone from doing that once we are all there? What is stopping thirty percent of us from being “cast out”?
If you say there is no possible way that we could rebel in Heaven, are you saying that God will take away our “free will” when we get there? Or has he already? Does it destroy any thought that we chose to follow Christ?
If you are saying that we can rebel in Heaven are you saying that our “free gift of eternal life” can at some point be in jeopardy? Can we loose our salvation even when we have entered Heaven?
Or, has God created a different Heaven that is “more efficient” than the Heaven that Lucifer lived in, in order to avoid another uprising? And in doing that, acknowledged that there were flaws in a perfect eternity prior to Earth?
Any option that Shaun and I can come up with simply pokes holes in some of the basic beliefs of Christianity, and we were up until past 1 AM talking about it. At least we have a long drive tomorrow to talk more.
What are your thoughts?
Wow. Um. I usually get headaches when I start thinking about stuff like that.
You guys raise some really good points. Now I a, afraid I shall spend the rest of the day letting them rattle around in my head. Perhaps I shall have more thoughts as the day wears on…
I hadn’t thought about this before and I don’t know how it will be. I’ll be thinking about it though…
This reminds me of a conversation I’ve had many times about whether or not your loved ones that have passed watch over you when they get to heaven. I know many people that believe they do. My best friend’s husband passed away a couple of years ago, and she told her children that daddy was watching over them from heaven. I privately asked her to be careful, because I don’t believe that’s true. There is no sadness in heaven; how heartwrenching would it be for him to watch them mourn and not be able to comfort them? She told me that’s how she gets through each day, by believing that he is watching over them. I strongly disagree, so we agreed to disagree and haven’t talked about it again.
this is literally causing my brain to hurt, but i do have a few thoughts. If it is possible for us to sin in heaven and be cast into hell. Is it God casting us out or is it our own choice and wow that sucks, but we have the same choice here on earth; every minute of our lives.
If it is not possible, than maybe we should not look at it as God taking away our free will, but demonstrating his unconditional love. Talking to anyone who is actually a christian, they will tell you that sin, whatever “their” sin may be, is the one thing that plagues their life and causing all of their problems. If they could live in a world without sin most people would say yes. So maybe God is saying “here is your perfect world, no sin.”
Aside from that, i am not sure that a finite brains will be able to figure it out. the infinite aspects of God and heaven are beyond our thoughts. Everything in this world has a begining and an end and that is about all that we understand.
I posted a link to this post on my blog and asked for responses from my friends/readers … one of my close friends responded in this way and I’m sure she wouldn’t mind me passing along her thoughts:
“I think we’ve actually already been there and done that. Man fell in the garden. Jesus became the righteousness of man. The difference then stands between us and the angels that Jesus died for us and not for them. The first couple chapters of Hebrews actually talk about the whole idea pretty much exactly. Its pretty amazing, especially when you ask the question before reading its answer.”
not sure if this is exactly what you’re looking for but I thought it was a stab in the right direction.
For the record, I don’t have a strong drive to find the answer to this question, but I do think it’s fun to ponder. It’s interesting to see how one belief supports the next and how when one belief is questioned it begins to whittle away at the others around it. Interesting. To me anyway. It’s all so connected.
Could be a headache coming, but then again, maybe not. I certainly don’t know the answers, but haven’t pondered it much either. It is all very connected and the journey to the answer is the important part for now. Let me know what you discover along the way.
Beth
I’ve thought on this one on and off for most of my life. Somehow, this question came to me as a kid, and I always seem to come back to at some point. It’s like the mathamatical theorum that cannot be proved: you go in circles, slowly tearing down everything that you use to build the proof.
In the end, we’ll know when we get there and no sooner (unless God decides to give a new revelation, who can say?). And yet, despite my saying that, I still ponder it. No answers here.
Here’s my two cents. We were made in his image and it is because of sin that we WANT to rebel and go against God anyway. He created us to love us and for us to love Him. He created us in the image that the desire to love Him is the number one desire in our hearts and minds. Do I think we will have free will in Heaven… you betcha! But because there will be no sin, our free will will not entail rebellion against God. A good read for you if you haven’t already read it ” Heaven” by Randy Alcorn. It’ll change your life! Have a Blessed Brody… great question here! I love it!!! GBU
The Catholics address this issue pretty thoroughly, actually. I am not at all studied in the topic, but Frank Sheed (a Catholic theologin) expounds on it in “Theology and Sanity,” a fascinating theological book, in which Sheed attempts to explain the beliefs of the Church in layman terms, from the nature of God to Jesus to the end of the world.
He speaks of the Beautific Vision, which is the destiny of created beings, men and angels, to see God directly, face to face. In all love and knowledge. This is what we all yearn for and is our hope. Right now we lack the power in our natural state but supernaturally, with intervention from God, we one day can attain it. (heaven)
So, this was also the plan for angels, but like us it required a test. At first they did not have this Beautific Vision. They were tested. Some angels failed, as we did, due to free will. In their free will they chose themselves over God and so suffered the consequences, eternal hatred of God and themselves and man. Those that passed the test gained the Beautific Vision, where the angelic messengers that we hear of in the Bible stand with God.
Sheed says that “Now, gazing forever upon the unvelied face of God, their wills were united to His in love so utterly, that sin was impossible to them: uncoerced, in the intensity of their love, they could will only what God willed. And in that life they were fully themselves, every power in fullest operation, utterly fulfilled. That is freedom.”
So this is where we are headed! To Beautific Vision. And our wills, not out of force, but because of our direct gaze on God, will not choose ourselves over Him. The ultimate freedom we seek.
For some reason we has humans were offered grace and a second chance, whereas it seems the angels were not. I’d have to read more to see if he offers explanation for that.
But he does give references. Also, the online Catholic Encyclopedia cites references that include Biblical and some not. Genesis, Daniel, Rev, etc. and then the Book of Enoch, Philo’s Doctine of Angels, and St. Justin…. Here’ the link:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm
I know we as Protestants don’t always go to Catholic sources, but in most instances I find it very helpful and enlightening.
If you are really interested beyond the Sheed (which I LOVE!!!) you might pick up an Aquinas book at Barnes and Noble. He is really the only theologian/philosopher that has tackled the Angel stuff EXTENSIVELY. It is really pretty darn cool.
I think we don’t think about this stuff enough.
hey man, great questions…i like what you guys are thinking about. I hope you don’t mind, but i am sending some guys over here to check this thing out…maybe they can help. they are smarter than me, and i ask them when i have questions like this.
Or, has God created a different Heaven that is “more efficient” than the Heaven that Lucifer lived in, in order to avoid another uprising?
one view that Ive heard is…
in creating mankind and giving him the free will that we have, He created a writen record of sin.
“The Book Of Life”
this book, by nature is truth, shows that, “God created a different Heaven” through the natural evolution of basic existance.
Concluding…That
“And in doing that, acknowledged that there were flaws in a perfect eternity prior to Earth?”
commonly known as, “you must reach the bottom befor you reach the top’
Brody,
Eric didnt specifically send me, but I would like to comment on occasion…Cool??
Keeping in mind that I represent a minority here in these (now 2) blogs.
Pnthrfan
I don’t think when you enter Heaven, Nirvana, or any other Afterlife that you have conscious thoughts and processes in the mind that you have here on earth. I believe that since Lucifer was cast out of Heaven he had to be…not because of his behavior mind you (sure that was part of it, and what was written), but by design of the universe. The behavior of Lucifer was inevitable.
I just got done watching Shrek 3 with my oldest, and part of the storyline is that the evil doers (Captain Hook, Witches, and Evil Stepsisters) have their on side of the story and are angry that everyone else gets to live the “Happily Ever After” and then there is an uproar in that community of Evil Doers…if there was not a villain though there would not be a “Happily Ever After”, it would simply exist as “OK Ever After”
So, with that in mind, if Lucifer did not rise up against God we would not have a freedom of choice to either do good or bad. There has to be 2 sides to the story, and once both sides exist, the other can not reside in that space anymore. Yin and Yang, Heaven and Hell, Oil and Water…We wont rise up against God in his presence because we cant, that space is filled with all things good (and in case anyone was wondering) jealousy aint that good. God didn’t create a heaven that was more efficient than the first; She (or He) just got some competition…
Hi my name is worm, you may remember me from such blogs as “Eric Brown
Wonderings of a Wanderer” and “The Round Table Mix”. Sorry, that was my tribute to The Simpson’s character “Troy McLure”. Any way………….Eric thought I could lend something to the discussion, so here I am. Let me start by saying I am not that smart, I have just been lucky to be under good teachers. Interesting question you pose, its very similar to a question Paul poses in Romans 9. But lets get to your question. How will we stay in good standing with God, while we are in heaven? Or how can we be guaranteed that we will not be thrown out of heaven because of a sin we will commit while we are there?
You bring free-will into your question, and I think that is blurring the issue. And it seems like that idea is going around in your head anyway. In modern society a lot of weight is placed on free will and the such. But what I propose to you is to re-think your understanding of free will. If you try to line up the modern understanding of free will and what the Bible says about mans will, then you will find that the two ideas don’t fit together. The Bible over and over again when it speaks of the will of man never refers to it as “free”. It is always bound by something, either the sinful nature (Romans 3:10-12) or the new nature that God promised thru his Son’s death (Romans 8:13-14). That’s what being born again means, receiving Gods spirit to guide you and allow you to love God. Then you are not bound by the sinful nature, but bound by the spirit. You still sin, but now it bothers you. At this point it would be good for you to understand that at one time I also believed in the freedom of mans will to choose or not to chose God, so I will not be surprised if this is hard for you to believe. But I challenge you to search the scriptures and see what you find. Try doing word searches for “predestined” and “chosen” that might help.
So its by Gods power that we will stay with him forever, lets look at scripture: Romans 8:28-39 read:
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So NOTHING will separate us, death, life (think of that when you read the parable of the sower in Matt 13) angles or demons from the love of Christ. In other words we have eternal security through the strength of God and not our own.
Hope this helped….
I sort of also tell people it is like being in love for the first time. When first in love, you would never CONSIDER cheating on your wife. You are enthralled. Not to mean that you don’t remember the possibility would be there, it is just that, that option is the furthest thing from your mind. In fact, the option would have to be placed there by God himself. Which is what he did in the Garden, and then again in accepting Grace through Faith.
In heaven and in the New Earth, the option to sin has been removed. (Now we see in part, then face to face) We will be truly free as the Angels are now that did not follow Lucifer; which was their test.
Redemption of man over Angels has always been a mystery to me, however there are some universalists who believe that when Paul said in Col. “reconciled ALL things in heaven and earth” he means ALL things, alluding to a possible grace for all things. (I don’t believe this is for angels but there are some that do. (They are called Heretics. jk)
worm.
So I take it you are newly Reformed? Or at least lean that way?
How do you explain, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock”? (Rev. 3:20) If I don’t get up and answer the door, the knocking may continue, it may not. But unless I “choose” to get up and answer the door I will never know. And that goes on to say “to him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne…”(Rev 3:21)
Not to turn this into a Reformed discussion, but it seems to be going that way.
pnthrfan.
If the universe was designed to be this way, than did God design some to live eternally in Hell? Can all really be saved? Is he only knocking on specific “doors”?
I have been reformed for about 4 ½ years now. John Piper convinced me so you can blame him. Good question about Revelation. You can also ask the same about Romans 10:9-10, “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” The same formula is presented here that you presented in Rev. 3. The formula is “do this” and “this will happen”. We see it throughout the Bible, especially in the Old Testament. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Whoever Believes, repents, turns, gets heaven.
I had the same struggle that most people have when thinking this through. But eventually the thought came into my mind: “how does one come to believe?” Are they smarter than the ones who did not? Well I am not that smart, matter of fact I know lots of people who are smarter than me who are not believers. They heard the same gospel I did. They just don’t care. What gave?
Acts 16:13-15 says “On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.”
Lydia believed, repented, turned, because “The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.” That is the same with everyone who repents and believes.
Look at Ephesians 2:8-10 and I will add my own commentary with parenthesis “For it is by grace you have been saved (you believed, repented, turned), through faith—and this not from yourselves (this was not by your power), it is the gift of God (God gave it, “it” is your faith)— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So that’s what I do with Rev 3: Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” So it is by grace we open the door, and by grace he comes in and communes with us. And its by grace we “hear what the Spirit says to the churches”
worm.
No blaming John Piper. There is nothing wrong with being Reformed.
I agree with you on this 100%. I believe that there is something that happens jest before we confess with our mouths that “Jesus is Lord”. I believe God knocks on a door and we can’t help but open it.
I can see how, because of God’s grace, we wouldn’t want to sin in Heaven, possibly not even be able to, but my original thought still wonders how the angels we able to.
Some would say it’s because they were at first not in direct contact with their Creator. So I guess that would mean at first they weren’t in heaven. (Heaven as we know it.) Like how we were in the garden before the apple. We were given a choice then to choose God or not. We chose ourselves and sinned. Same with the fallen angels. Those that chose rightly then entered into full knowledge and understanding of God…or heaven.
Again, I’d have to study more, but from the little that I’ve read…
Don’t ya love it when people don’t get your original question and they end up being accidentally condescending… which means, “to talk down to” (ha-ha)
Well, I’ve heard it explained that the angels were given the test just like old A & E. And that was their test. They were given the option to “be able to” follow Lucifer. It must have been pretty dang tantalizing. So how? I guess it was there the same way the tree was, God put it there or allowed it. Giving the choice wasn’t an accident in the Garden, and it wasn’t an accident in Heaven. It was more of a moment, rather than a constant state of effed-upness, and that moment was purposed. Without that “moment” or choice, there could be no real Love between man and God or Angel and God. Of course, thats what the theologian big-wigs say.
Kaballah (however you spell that) teaches that God was sort “feeling” his way through creation, screwing up and correcting it. The whole Cosmic Janitor theory.
It’s a pretty incredible thing to ponder. What that must have been like for Adam and Eve, and the Fallen Angels. That moment of “choice” It must have been a very foreign and alluring thing- the ability to choose from total innocence. It is something that we have never experienced. The complete newness of the possiblity for sin. Even the Lord was tempted for cryin out loud.
It must have been even all the more alluring for the angels and all the more wonderful if they did not choose, considering the punishment for their choice was and is more severe.
It begs the question: was the allure of self-over-God or “sin” made irresistible as well?
Now re-enters our Reformed friends…
Somebody once told me the Bible doesn’t tell us everything there is to know, but tells us everything we need to know. On the issue about why the angels fell, we say things like “I heard” or “this theologian says”. Since we can’t say “the Bible says” about the matter, we can’t really know.
I did not mean to talk down to anybody (if Seth was talking about me), I only felt comfortable talking about what scripture clearly says (at least from I can see, ultimately you have to decide for yourself any way) about Brody’s question (the man rebelling in heaven part). And since it’s not clear about the lives of angels, I felt like I would just be guessing. (I love parentheses)
I agree with that worm.
There is no way for us to know anything about heaven or even death. That’s the hard part. I guess my deal is that it might not be outside the realm of possibility of happening.
Shaun and I have talked about a “new heaven” and a “new earth” and I think, in some science fiction kind of way, what if everything started over?
It’s fun to think about.
(by the way, I didn’t sense any “talking down”)
I didn’t either. I was actually talking about me. As in, i spouted off a bunch of stuff that you already knew because I was guilty of skimming. A joke gone awry. k’thud.
Sometimes I’ll post a similar kind question on my blog and no one will get the real question and end up explaining lots of stuff that I wasn’t wondering. Usually my fault. No big deal. Worm, I wasn’t meaning that. Many apologies…
Anywho, I do disagree with the statement that the bible doesn’t tell us how the angels fell. Maybe I’m misunderstanding that.
The reason being, that Satan lead them astray. As for Satan, the father of lies, it was pride, it seems from scripture.
I do think there is a biblical aswer to just about every one you asked. Some of it theologians, I guess you could say, “discern” these answers, but not much more discerning than what it takes to come up with “the Trinity” that is never mentioned specifically. So I re-read here without skimming I will take a humble stab at thy questions. It’s a long one but hey, you ask the questions buddy.
Brody: “Could there be a time where we rebel?”
Well, it would seem that most NT scripture points to the garden as a “one time event” for instance:
1 Corinthians 15:21-22,45,49 21For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ..45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. ..49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Brody: “What caused Lucifer to want to rise up and desire to be higher than God? Was it sin?”
As for that, theologians have used Satan’s fall from heaven as described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18 to discern it was pride. And then there are probably others that I’m too lazy to look up. As for God creating sin, we know that God didn’t create sin, but we know he created the test for the possibility. It was there in garden so we could pretty easy make the leap that some kind of test was given to the angels and that had something to do with the Devil, and his test was the first, which was pride.
Brody: “And what is stopping someone from doing that once we are all there? What is stopping thirty percent of us from being “cast out”?
Because of the test in the garden, and from stuff quoted in the Corinth. verses above, we could say that it WILL be different. It is our great hope in fact. there is also this verse from Luke 20:36
“Neither can they die any more, for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
Which seems to imply that death is OUT for us if we believe now, like it is for the good angels now. So we know death is gone, death came by sin and sin came from the test and the test was made possible by our free will… so then comes the free will question.
Brody: “If you say there is no possible way that we could rebel in Heaven, are you saying that God will take away our “free will” when we get there?”
That question seems to have a few layers. First you have to decide just what is “free will” and that is a whole thing unto itself. If you consider “free will” to be: “a constant state of being able to choose sin over God,” then the answer would seem to be yes, that kind of free will is out in heaven.
But I would consider that to be a gift that we choose to recieve rather than a “heeeey you took my free will!!!” So in a sense he gives us freedom, by our faith in him using free will now, and we willing give that up and get to be happy all the time. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.
But even when you talk about that “free will” NOW it gets tricky because nobody has a total free will right here and now. You or I can’t just say “I cease to exist” and poof we are gone. No, we have a certain amount of free will give to us (to choose him or self) and when we choose Christ, in a sense we are surrendering that as well and as Paul says we become slaves. This is fully realized in heaven but we start the journey now as Paul goes on to explain,
“For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known” Corinth 13:12
And then in Revelation:
” and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
Implying then that “No” we won’t be able to sin which causes the mourning, death, crying and pain.
Brody: Or, has God created a different Heaven that is “more efficient” than the Heaven that Lucifer lived in, in order to avoid another uprising”
This is a cool question and seems to be your main one. I think the question would be “did the angels have a beatific vision (the state they are in now, removed from the danger of sin), in full, before there fall?” Rather than: “‘did God create an inefficient heaven which caused some to fall and then fixed it so the rest wouldn’t…” You could ask the same of Eden: “Did God create an inefficient Eden?”
It seems then that the Angels didn’t have the direct gaze that Jesus speaks of when he said “for I say unto you that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)”
Because we know some blew it and some got it right. Why? It seems that they had the choice to be led astray by the devil (as did A & E) and that if they gaze upon him now as Jesus states then they must have not had this gift when this happened as told in Revelation:
“And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”
(Of course since that verse is in Rev, we could wonder if John was talking about end times but Jesus told the disciples earlier “He replied, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. ” (Luke: 10:18) so it seems to have happened by the time Jesus came.)
The underlying question to all that is: “has God created a different Heaven that is more efficient?” is “did God mess up?” I think main-line Christianity has said, no, he didn’t. He knew it all, created it all and He is without wrong. At the end of that long discussion we would find that the question of “how a all-knowing God would create a situation knowing we would screw up but still not desire us to screw up…” is a mystery.
As for: “acknowledged that there were flaws in a perfect eternity prior to Earth?”
There seems to be only one verse that people who adhere to “the Gap theory” use to imply this. And that is between Gen. 1:1 and 2, stating that there is a big gap between the two where God had to start over. But that seems to be a bigger scripture jump than the idea that God DOES NOT “feel his way” through creation messing up and fixing it.
Seth, not disagreeing here but I will now ask you some tought questions…not because I’m really in search of an answer to any of this but because I like messing with Brody’s mind while he searches. Twisted I guess. But what are friends for?
So Seth…
You say The reason being, that Satan lead them astray. As for Satan, the father of lies, it was pride, it seems from scripture.
Alrighty. But if Heaven is a perfect place how can temptation exist there at all? (This is assuming heaven is a “there” but that’s another issue altogether.) You know the drill. We’ve been saved in th past from the penalty of sin (Justification), in the present from the power of sin (sanctification) and we will be saved in the future from the presence of sin (glorification). PRESENCE! If sin is not present in heaven how can we choose it?
BAM! No answer we conjur up to these questions of Bordy’s – at least so far – stands up under the tiniest amount of scrutiny. WHich I love. It can’t be reasoned.
Who was it that said God lisps when talking to us, the way I talk baby talk to my smallest child. I think the versio of events we have in scripture is so incredibly juvenile, dumbed down etc that it fails to satisfy us for long – but the whole truth would be unintelligible for us would it not? Just a guess.
“Neither can they die any more, for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
In what sense? The bible says we won’t die if we believe in Jesus but that’s death is a spiritual one because, of course, we do physically die. Is this the same promise? If so, it doesn’t mean we can’t live spiritually in opposition to God, if tested in the same way Lucifer was right? And “equal to the angels” we surely wouldn’t fare any better than them in a similar “test.”
that kind of free will is out in heaven. Says who? We’d like to think so – I think so – I hope so – but does the bible say as much? Again, is glorification not being allowed to choose sin or is it the absence of sin to choose?
It seems then that the Angels didn’t have the direct gaze that Jesus speaks of when he said “for I say unto you that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:10)” Jesus – God with skin on – walked with Adam and Eve in the garden and called their name. How much more face-to-face can you get?
Seth, I thoroughly enjoyed your comments. Never thought through some of that.
I especially liked how you closed: mystery. That pretty much sums it up for me. Fun to ponder. Might even make sense of some of it some day. But mostly, these questions lead me to awe inspiring mystery.
Interesting points my friend. Some of this is a real bitcharoony to get my mind around and then even more so to explain. But I’ll try to make sense of the way I’m seeing it without being tooooo longwinded but when it comes to this, it just ain’t possible, to me anyways.
You said: “that kind of free will is out in heaven. Says who? We’d like to think so – I think so – I hope so – but does the bible say as much? Again, is glorification not being allowed to choose sin or is it the absence of sin to choose?”
And then: “PRESENCE! If sin is not present in heaven how can we choose it?”
I think some of the answers to this here conundrum can be answered in the way you are looking at “sin” only because it seems that you guys are talking about sin as if it is a “something” when it is actually a “nothing” the FREE WILL to CHOOSE nothing is the real kicker, i.e. the big-time mystery.
Sin, stripped away from all its pretty clothing, in its nakedness, is pride as we have all been taught. And pride is essentially NOT choosing God. Satan tempted the Lord with Good things like bread or all the kingdoms of the world, and the care of angels. But underneath all that was really to choose “not God”
On further examination we see that NOT choosing God is essentially choosing “nothing” since God made all things from nothing and holds ALL things together. So sin is choosing a state of being that is NOT of God, and since everything made is held together by the very thought of God, when we sin we are choosing a state of nothingness. i.e. death. The wages of that choosing nothing is Death. Nothing.
So, what the real question we are looking at here is not if there is sin in heaven for the choosing, (as if sin is a tangible, created item for the choosing when it isn’t) but will we still have the ability to CHOOSE “God” or “nothing” resulting in “death” or “sin.”
So when you ask: “is glorification not being allowed to choose sin or is it the absence of sin to choose?”
You are asking about the same thing because it is both at once.
And it seems to me, as told in scripture, that once we choose Christ, the reward is that God does not allow “nothing” or “death” to have ANY power since he has conquered it.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
So therefore, yes, we are safe which has to mean we can’t choose it because we have chosen God and the rest is his territory.
Then again there is this verse:
“and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
So the bible may not say explicitly that we will deprived of that kind of choice but it does pretty explicitly list all the things that we won’t worry about and those things just happen to be the result of that choice, so taking on tiiiiny leap and saying, that choice is removed, isn’t to far of a stretch to me. In fact, it is essential because the choice IS those things.
So for NOW there is God, and there is nothing. And we choose either. And we feeeel that nothing when we don’t choose him. Every time we sin we choose to die a little. (A hard but cool thing for me to ponder.) Somehow in the Garden with A & E and NOW we were given the ability to choose either, and THAT was the mystery then and again now. And I just so happens that the times that I see him the clearest here also happen to be the times that I am thinking the least about choosing “nothing,” even dressed up in a pretty package.
I’ll stop here for fear of not getting your point and typing too much.
Thoroughly enjoying this as well fellas.
Hey guys,
Mind if I jump in here real quick? This stuff is so interesting to me. And it’s been making me think and read…
Shaun, you ask in your comment: If so, it doesn’t mean we can’t live spiritually in opposition to God, if tested in the same way Lucifer was right? And “equal to the angels” we surely wouldn’t fare any better than them in a similar “test.”
I think I understand your question. I’ll use Scripture here that I know all you have probably considered, but I’ll attempt using them in a more focused light.
Understanding life and death, in a spiritual sense, has always confused me a bit. But I think some of this helps: We consider angels to be spiritual beings. They are immaterial, and so also immortal. Not infinite, as only God is, but created by God as spiritual beings.
Now, we consider man as a physical and spiritual being. We are material, made of mass. God created us material, and then breathed His life into us, the spiritual. (How we are made in His image, possibly.) Now before the apple, death was not there. We were material but immortal. But, after the fall of man and man chose sin, death entered. (Romans 5:12: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned)
So we experience death. Both physically and spiritually, because we’re made of both. The physical death is easy for us to see, the spiritual not so much. Because spiritual death does not mean “decay” or “stop functioning” like it does in the physical sense. Spiritual death has to be different, so to study it, I think we can look at the opposite, spiritual life.
First of all, the gospel of John is chalk full of Jesus talking about the life that he offers, and He many, many times uses the phrase, “eternal life.” Denoting an everlasting life that is differentiated from eternal condemnation. Like here:
John 5: 24: “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life…. 28″Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
Jesus stresses later in John that this eternal life cannot be taken away from us:
John 5: 28: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
Jesus prays before his crucifixion, and here we see this definition of eternal life:
John 17:1: After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
So the opposite of eternal life is NOT knowing the one true God and Jesus Christ….condemnation.
Again, this eternal life has to be different from eternal condemnation. It is a gift that is everlasting.
Paul says in
Romans 8:1: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.”
No condemnation, ever. Jesus did here on earth what Adam couldn’t do. He passed the test. He chose God’s will over his own. But because he was man he experienced the punishment that was due to us in physical death…and spiritual death, he was forsaken by God. But, he defeated it, both physically and spiritually, and rose again.
If we are able to live in opposition to God in heaven, then Christ didn’t defeat sin and death. If we are able to live in opposition to God in heaven, we would be cast from His presence, as we saw with the angels, and Jesus not only promises this condemnation will not happen in eternal life, he has defeated the possibility.
Thoughts?
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